Weirdly enough, we seem to be heading right into the holiday season. And I have a party to attend which requests Victorian period dress. Now, there is nothing I love more than an excuse to sew something totally frivolous and extravagant. However this is totally out of my comfort zone in terms of time period. But I just know that some of you are historical sewing enthusiasts and experts, right?
I've fallen quite in love with Butterick 5823, with its beautiful bodice and sleeve draping.
Secondly, fabric choice. The pattern recommends lightweight cottons like voile but I'd really like to do it in something more winter appropriate, maybe a crisp shantung with a drapey silk for the ruched insets. What do you think?
Third, foundation garments. I'm assuming one wears a corset and petticoats underneath this. Overbust or underbust?
This may just be pure fantasy sewing since time is of the essence, but I'd love to hear your thoughts! Have you ever sewn anything from this era? Please share!
That pattern makes me think more "Southern Belle" than Victorian. Going for something identified as steampunk themed would be a safer bet.
ReplyDeleteWell, "Southern Belle," if you mean just-pre-the-U.S.-Civil-War, WAS in the middle of Victoria's reign - maybe right at the end of the first third of it!
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DeleteArgh - I had Victoria's coronation pegged as a decade earlier (1827 rather than 1837). Sorry. But this is still solidly within the early Victorian period. And English ladies during Victoria's reign certainly wore light cotton prints during the summers . . . . OK, that's the re-enactor coming out . . . Gertie, this would make a beautiful party dress! I don't think shantung was much used (taffeta might be more appropriate, altho much more expensive in silk) and the ruching might work better in taffeta as well.
Hey Gertie! The pattern you like is roughly mid-victorian-dickens appropriate but if you want to go with some more fully historically accurate patterns, you might want to look at Truly Victorian, which I always have great luck with: http://www.trulyvictorian.net/tvxcart/home.php?cat=1 and Past Patterns also has some accurate mid-victorian patterns: http://www.pastpatterns.com/1850.html and here's my Mid-victorian pinterest board: http://www.pinterest.com/aimeekitty/1840-s-60-s-victorian-mid/ (I'm sure you can find many other good ones, too!) If you want to get really into it, I recommend Laughing Moon: http://www.lafnmoon.com/Pattern_100_Ladies_Victorian_Underwear_p/p100.htm That will get you started with a basic chemise, bloomers and corset. I've used the Laughing Moon corset I made for like 12 years for almost anything that needs that nice silhouette, but of course it's perfect for Victorian. To keep it simpler, you can get a basic round hoop skirt for like $15 max on eBay. If you want to get more hardcore later and make a totally accurate hoop skirt, you can, but it's not the most important thing. IMHO, getting a proper victorian corset or making one, and then the dress itself with a good shaped pattern is most important. :) Having a bonnet is very fun, too... ! http://lynnmcmasters.com/patterns19th.html has some wonderful patterns. You can also buy some Victorian bonnets on etsy and eBay of varying accuracy. You might be able to find a straw blank bonnet and decorate it yourself, too. Shoes: http://www.american-duchess.com/edwardian-victorian-shoes-boots and http://www.fugawee.com/cw%20women's.htm or you can just wear some not-accurate victorian-ish granny boots. :) Are you going to Dicken's Fair up in the Nor-Cal area? You should sometime! Look forward to seeing what you make!
ReplyDeleteThanks so much for all the great info, Aimee! This is really helpful. I love the Past Patterns ballgown bodice. I don't have time to make an overbust corset, do you have recommendations for a ready-to-wear one that has the right shape?
DeleteTotally agree with Aimee! You aren't new to sewing, get a decent pattern. Or get Janet Arnold's book (http://www.amazon.ca/Pattern-Of-Fashion-2-1860-1940/dp/0333136071). I drool over her patterns all the time :)
DeleteI also recommend a large bridal crinoline for underneath. don't try to get a hoop under there. you need many layers of petticoats to get a hoop looking correct, and a crinoline will give you the same fullness, but will be more soft and easier to move in.
DeleteI second checking out Truly Victorian or Past Patterns, however, if it is for a one time event, and you are not entirely concerned about being "period accurate" and would just like to be period appropriate, the pattern you've chosen is lovely. I might add a little more fullness to the skirt, though.
If you go with silk, I recommend trimming the hem with something you wont' mind dragging on the ground or stepping on (a lining would be highly recommended, too)
As for undergarments, if you can find an overbust corset that works for you, than that would be more accurate. I can't ever find one that is not hundreds of dollars and I don't have time to make one, so I wear and underbust corset and bra, covered with a corset cover, you can't even tell the difference. I've recently discovered Orchard Corset and the 426 had a nice roomy hip, that is hard to find with ready wear corsets. Timeless Trends has nice corsets, too (I own several).
Undergarments: corset cover or chemise and petticoat(s). You can find some lovely and not too expensive petticoats at www.recollections.biz (though you might want to pay for the expedited process, as they do take a long time). Or just make one, adding extra lace and trims around the bottom will help add fullness.
Hope that helps!
I agree with Jason - that's more of a Southern Belle thing (although pretty, and love those sleeves).
ReplyDeleteDreamstress has a huge pinterest page full of clothing pictures that are historically accurate (and neatly sorted according to time period). I'd check there http://www.pinterest.com/thedreamstress/ for inspiration.
Underbust/overbust? Depends on the dress. Lots of the period corsets seem to end about mid-bust, and are intended to be worn with corset covers and camisoles etc. How into this did you say you wanted to get? :)
In the right fabric, I can see this being a lovely period-themed piece. In very general terms, I would place this as mid-19th century, so appropriate for the party IMO.
ReplyDeleteYou might want to check your local library for the book "Patterns of Fashion" (either volume 1 or 2) by Janet Arnold. The two volumes straddle the Mid-19th Century, and have some great scale patterns from original sources. I think her narrative also might cover some of the undergarments common to styles of the era. There are also notes on construction details and notes of typical fabrics and information on how garments were styled, if memory serves.
oh... and just in case I wasn't clear, overbust corset. :)
ReplyDeleteAnd here's a late victorian I did using later TV patterns and wearing my Laughing Moon corset underneath ! :) http://aimeemajor.com/wp/wp-content/gallery/victorian/sakuraphotos04.jpg
I'm making a mid-victorian for Dickens Fair this year using Past Patterns and a plaid taffeta. :)
The designer, Nancy Farris Thee, describes this as a 1830-40s style dress, which places it in the romantic era
ReplyDeleteI agree, that pattern looks very 1830-40 and at that early point, most corsets were more stays than corsets (they didn't have separating busks yet and the stays were more to hold everything firm and not designed to cinch the waist.
DeleteThat means that you don't really need a corset with this style but some nice shapewear or long line bra even will help it lay nicely. I think this dress would be a good beginner victorian option. YOu get to avoid all the tiny waist, bug bustle or huge upper sleeves (popular in the early 1830s and again in 1890s).
These dresses were also worn with corded or just many many petticoats so a contemporary bridal underskirt should give you the right look without all the weight. no need for hoops, they weren't really a thing yet.
Hi Gertie. To me this dress pattern resembles the Plantation era (early 18th century) and according to catalogue is inspired by the American Civil War. Butterick B5970 is more turn of the century with boned, gathered bodice and four-piece, gathered sleeves. Pattern recommends lightweight wovens. Hope this is useful. Good luck Julie
ReplyDeleteJanet Arnold's books are great, but I'm not sure someone just getting into historic costuming would want to scale up from a page to start out with. It's kinda a pain in the butt.
ReplyDeleteJust as you know, the catalogue description is not correct, Farris - Thee has corrected it. It is not a civil war pattern, it is a romantic gown
ReplyDelete18th century is 1700's. You meant 19th century, right, Julie? :) 1830-40s is a little pre-mid-victorian/dickens, but could be fine if done up right. A lot of stuff that says American Civil War is also Dickens-ish, too. <3
ReplyDeleteIf you aren't going for 100% historical accuracy, this would be a great party dress in shantung. It's all in how you trim it. [A touch of velvet or plaid ribbons would be fun.] Yes to corset -overbust is best, but underbust works, if that's what you have. And petticoats! Lots of.
ReplyDeleteYou are all so helpful, thank you!
ReplyDeleteVictorian covers a wide span of time. I personally picked this pattern up this summer and hope to use it sometime, but I think it would be perfect! If you have ever watched the young Victoria this dress is somewhat similar to the dresses that the actress who plays Victoria wears.
ReplyDeleteAs for the different fabrics I'm not sure. I would think it would work in other fabrics.
I think you should just go for it, I'd love to hear your thoughts and opinions on the pattern once you've finished the dress to!
I really agree with Aimee's comments re: historical accuracy. This Butterick pattern is ok for 1830s/40s, but the asymmetric bertha is weird & I can't find much basis for it (it if was done, it'd be uncommon).
ReplyDeleteHa! the seamy underbelly of historical sewing shows immediately...no matter what you do, a bunch of people will say you're "wrong"!
ReplyDeleteGreat planning on behalf of the party, as Victoria reigned from 1837-1901, so there's a lot of choice. Google 'historical dress silhouettes', pick something from the numerous comparative charts that speaks to you, and be prepared for the 'constructive criticism'!
Check out Truly Victorian Patterns...they are mix and matchable, easy to follow, and period correct.
ReplyDeleteHey! Check out this website http://www.evadress.com/ladies_listing_1800s2.html for pattern reproductions from the era.... and her blog at http://evadress.blogspot.com/ is pretty darn fascinating too.
ReplyDeleteI'd looooooooooooove to see you get all historical on us. :-)
A lot of Dickens was actually set a couple of decades earlier than when he was writing. Little Dorritt for instance is set in the 1820s, and I think Great Expectations starts in the same period.
ReplyDeleteSeems like the idea of the party is to have fun, so no need to stress over historical accuracy. The pattern you selected would look very nice in velvet or silk type materials in rich colors with pretty trims. I also echo the recommendations for Truly Victorian patterns. The most recent one I made was the can-can skirt for my daughter and I used Burda 7156 for the drawers (which are period correct). If you interested in how they put things together, check out Authentic Victorian Dressmaking Techniques by Kristina Harris. It is a reprint of a 1905 sewing book, so technically Edwardian, but the techniques featured were used in Victorian garments.
ReplyDeleteIt's a good "costume" version of 1840s, but if you want to do something actually correct follow the previous advice and check out some other pattern sources. All mentioned above are good places to look, and there are also some really good (totally accurate) options available here: http://www.amazondrygoods.com/categories/historic-patterns/womens/civil-war-1861-1865.html
ReplyDeleteIf someone told me "Victorian" I would tend to go with a solid, mid-victorian silhouette (i.e. Civil War era, rather than later bustle periods). A bridal crinoline won't really give you the right shape, but if you're doing hoops you need to make sure that you've got sufficient ruffles/layers on your under petticoats to keep your hoops from showing through your dress. For undergarments you'll want a chemise (for under your corset), a corset that hits mid-bust to keep everything contained and perky ;), and then hoops, petticoats, drawers under all of that if you want to get full on correct, and possibly a corset cover.
Fabrics are kind of all over the place and will depend on how fancy you want to get. You don't want any slubby silk, so something more akin to taffeta would be preferable. You could also do a lightweight wool, or even cotton prints, which were fairly common. Sticking with something with a bit more body will help you achieve the skirt shape with fewer/less correct underwear a little more easily than something like voile or lawn. You could absolutely use something much lighter, but you'll really need all the proper underwear to make such a lightweight fabric look right since it doesn't have much body itself.
Janet Arnold's books are amazing, but you may not feel like scaling and grading from extant garments just to go to a party.
As far as ready-made corsets go, Corset-story.com has some cheap over busts that are close enough to get a more correct shape than un-corseted, but you'll definitely want to make sure you've got something that isn't too high (i.e. not a super pronounced "sweetheart") or it will throw off the shape.
And that's the end of my novel. Have fun!
You can get fantastic pattern books for various eras from the fashion museum in Bath... I would get all of them, but I cannot justify it... If you can get them there- complete with diagrams for the patterns, I am sure you can get them in other places... Libraries? perhaps..
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteeck out the blog: historicalsewing.com. The author sews almost exclusively Victorian costumes and her posts have been extremely helpful when I was sewing a Victorian gown!
ReplyDeleteJanet Arnold's books were suggested to give ideas of period accurate details, and perhaps some information regarding what undergarments would be used, which were questions that Gertie had. From that perspective, Arnold's books would be good reference materials, but I don't know if anyone was suggesting them as the basis for a design that, from the sounds of it, needs to be executed in a relatively short time.
ReplyDeleteHi Gretchen! This Butterick pattern is historically accurate to the 1830s-1840s time period. It was designed by Nancy Farris-Thee, who is an historical reenactor. It may not be of the time period you're looking for, but it is historically accurate.
ReplyDeleteI've bought corsets from Timeless Trends and been very pleased with the quality of their construction and their beauty. They have steel bones and busks and I found them quite comfortable to wear. http://www.timeless-trends.com/
ReplyDeleteFor a period accurate look one definitely should have a corset. But the corsets are not truly over the bust, but rather mid-bust (about nipple level) so the hassle of fitting the curve of the corset over the breasts is overcome. The bust support from a mid bust corset is needed to give the right silhouette, a underbust corset will not do, as the line from the waist to the bust line is not smooth.
ReplyDeleteMid-bust corsets are relatively quick to whip up and as the mid 19th century does actually not require a tiny tiny waist or any weird silhouettes corset wise (as compared to the edwardian era for example) the construction is not so complicate either.
http://historicalsewing.com/
ReplyDeletethis blog will answer ALL your questions.
Aliss
Gertie- I have nothing to add but to say it is reassuring that even someone like you needs advice on occasion! :). By the way I have your new book and I love it.
ReplyDeleteI ca tell you the silhouette is wrong here. I'd put this at pre 1860 (but my "era's" are regency 1810-20 and bustle era 1870-90 so I am not an expert), but I think that this pattern they didn't have proper foundation garments, ie quilted petticoats, stays (corset), etc to make it hang right.
ReplyDeleteIf you are looking for simple, but more accurate simplicity has a 1860's series of patterns that have a little more history to them. I've heard great things about Truly Victorian as well.
If you are looking for a latter bustle era outfit Jen Thompson's blog has some great pattern reviews (and drool worthy shots of her costumes). http://www.festiveattyre.com/
Looks like very late 1830s to me, which is the very beginning of both the Victorian era and Dickens' career (Pickwick Papers was published at this time). A crisp silk would be fine (nothing slubby, like dupioni), but I wouldn't recommend using a different silk for the ruched bits. Those would all have been the same fabric in period. Overbust corset for sure. Not sure on where to buy. And several petticoats. For volume, try using a pre-quilted fabric for one petticoat. Quilted petticoats are totally accurate and are usually just rectangles knife-pleated to a plain waistband. Petticoats were usually rectangular lengths of plain cotton gathered to a plain waistband, like dirndl skirts, but about 110-150 inches at the hem.
ReplyDeleteJust a few things others may not have touched on - boning the bodice at the seamlines will help it stay smooth.
ReplyDeleteThere are some decent ready to wear corsets out there for not too bad prices...
I've bought a few corsets from Alice and Willow on Etsy and they fit well and were pretty sturdy - https://www.etsy.com/shop/AliceAndWillow
And I have friends who've bought from this maker and liked them but I've never bought from them myself - http://www.corset-story.com/corsets/overbust.html
Hope this helps!
You've gotten tons of advice so far, but I wanted to let you know that I'm in the middle of making this dress for my sister. I've finished the bodice so far. W decided the asymmetrical pleating in front wasn't what we wanted, so I just straightened the front bodice seam (in the pattern it is curved to accommodate the faux-wrap-ish look) and cut two of the larger drapes instead of just one. It looks great so far!
ReplyDeleteThis pattern is perfect for 1839-41. You get the higher waist of the 1830s without the huge sleeves and the slim fit of the 1840s without the long waist (we're all short waisted in my family). The different pieces of the sleeve are a bit like a puzzle and I'd say the most challenging part. I used a printed cotton, so all that hard work doesn't show. If you want all the details to show, a solid would be best. There's quite a bit of ease factored into the sizing, so go by the finished garment measurements rather than the sizing chart. I had to take in Minnie's dress about 4 inches.
Welcome to the wild world of historical costuming. Re-enactors want accuracy in every last detail, including the type and color and pattern of the fabric; the shape of the sleeve; the height and curve of the neckline; the, um, efficiency of the drawers. Steampunkers want something kind of historical and usually outrageous--in a fun way. That leaves a bunch of us who want something reasonably historical, something that is good enough and that creates a mood. The Butterick dress falls into the last category. It's pretty, would be fun to sew and wear, and suggests the 19th century. A re-enactor wouldn't go for it for various reasons, with the zipper high on the list. But if it makes your heart sing, go for it. A couple of truly wonderful sources for 19th century costuming are Patterns of Time (http://www.patternsoftime.com/) and the book "Dressed for the Photographer," by Joan Severa. The book is fun to look at and fascinating to read--it's my go-to when I'm doing historical skits (and no, I don't wear efficient drawers; I wear Fruit-of-the-Loom). Have a grand adventure on your foray into the past! And thanks for all your sewing wisdom....
ReplyDeleteI'm with Anonymous on this one. Also worth noting, the dress's late 1830s/early 1840s look is about right for A Christmas Carol, which was published in 1843. As a reference point, the Northern CA Dickens' Faire sets their timeline from 1840-1863.
DeleteAnd I think this dress would look lovely in a dark/rich colored rustle-y silk...
I second both these opinions - as a re-enactor, sister of a steampunker, and aspiring steampunker myself - Anonymous pretty much has us pegged!
DeleteWhen I think Victorian, I think dark colors. I think the pattern would look less Southern Belle if it were in a dark brown. I also think velvet which would be great for a holiday party. I wouldn't do a hoop; I'd go with layers of petticoats because it would be easier to move around in and it would give you layers of warmth. You could also consider silk petticoats and pinning up the dress. That screams Victorian as Victorian women often took every opportunity to show off their needlework skills. It would be a great chance to showcase handmade lace or tatting on a petticoat.
ReplyDeleteall these are great information. Have fun, and go for it. I have one other suggestion for an over bust corset. If you have a long line bra (from the old days) and take a tuck in the bra cups from left to right, to give them a flatter look, it will give you a very good silhouette, without the hassle of making a corset from scratch. Another suggestion, it will take some time to make it. It won't go together in a couple of hours. The heavier the fabric, the heavier the dress. Remember you're holding almost 5 yds of fabric from your waist. Taffeta would be wonderful choice, strong and lightweight.
ReplyDeleteNo advice -- just want to see your finished creation, please!
ReplyDeleteDickens was writing in the 1830s and 40s, and Queen Victoria began her rule in 1837. So if this is 1830s-40s this certainly would count as Victorian. I think it only reads as Southern Belle (which is basically the same era) because of the summery fabric. Do it in a nice dark silk and Bob (Cratchitt)'s your uncle!
ReplyDeleteI'm so excited to see what you make! I can't offer much advise but colour wise deep reds, rusts and navy's are popular for the Victorian era!
ReplyDeleteOne of my favorite go to sites is: http://www.oldtimepatterns.com/earlyvictorian.html Have fun, can't wait to see what you come up with!
ReplyDeleteMy only suggestion is to remember that the Victorians went pretty ga-ga with color when aniline dyes were introduced. It wouldn't be out of the question for you to have a Fuchsia or Turquoise dress if you wanted. We tend to associate dark and muted colors with the Victorians, possibly because Queen Victoria was in mourning for so long after her husband died, but bright unnatural colors were prized because it was such a cool new technology.
ReplyDeletehttp://thedreamstress.com/2013/09/terminology-what-are-aniline-dyes-or-the-history-of-mauve-and-mauveine/
My historical interests are primarily Regency, but my sewing experience is in Renaissance when it comes to costumes (brocade and velvet). While I do enjoy a good sewing and creative challenge, in this instance I would have to admit I would cheat. I live in the Houston, TX area where there is a very active theater community and Dickens on the Strand in Galveston every year. So there are some really awesome costume shops in the area.
ReplyDeleteAnother good resource... http://www.patternsoftime.com/
ReplyDeleteYou answered your own question ...you've fallen in love with it...I would put it in early Victorian and in a deeper color, it could pass for a little later.
ReplyDeleteMy one suggestion is to add some sort of trimming to the bottom or the skirt
I for one would love to see how the bodice pleating your creation of the pleated bodice wrap effect...I could see something similar on a Mad Men wiggle dress
I would recommend watching the Judy Garland movie "Meet Me in St. Louis" for some inspiration. It's set in 1904 so the era is right, and it was made in 1944, so the memories were still vivid of the time. There is also a scene when the sisters are getting ready for the Christmas ball that shows the undergarments that go into it and the Christmas ball itself might give you some ideas for appropriate colors. Hope this helps....
ReplyDeleteThis is definitely aiming at the air of late 1830s-early 1840s, which was indeed when Victoria's reign began. Too often people mistake Dickens to mean hoopskirts, large bonnets and little capelets - if you watch some of the better Christmas Carol films, they often use the 1820s-1840s as their setting. For undergarments, a mid-bust corset will do nicely (shoot, the CW Simplicity ones make up in about a day and are functional) and definitely just go with petticoats for your skirt support. If your party is indoors, it will make your life much easier, and the fabric will be closer to your body so your legs will stay warmer. (Limited updrafts!) For the dress fabric, I would stick to silk tafetta, a light wool or if you want that super drapey feel the pattern has, a silk satin could work as well. And definitely use some fun period colors - they only had candlelight back then and the brighter colors prevented floating heads. ;)
ReplyDeleteThat all said, I say go with what's comfortable and fun for you - it's a party!! When I hosted a Victorian Christmas, we had all ends of Victoria's reign and no one was bothered by it because we all looked lovely and had a wonderful time.
who cares if it's historically accurate. it looks fun, don't spend a lot of money on something you'll only wear once. do what you want and wear what you want. Get a corset or just bone the danged top and wear that. Trust me, NO ONE with any claim to manners will come up to you and start picking. if they do smack them in the head with your reticule (put in a brick) and say "back off bitch." if you decide to get more into it, THEN start spending the money on accurate stuff and be a "authenticity copper" til then HAVE FUN.
ReplyDeleteDef early Victorian in feel, but the waistline isn't placed correctly, it should be higher - so it's fusion of early and later. Since your sewing skills are excellent it will come off very well even if not historically accurate and be fun. Beware too shiny fabric in my opinion though, really emphasizes body bulges and creases. I suggest interlining the whole shebang with muslin to achieve a nice look. Doubtless you will be the belle!
ReplyDeleteThis is one of my favorite eras for dresses. They wore many layers: chemises, corsets (underbust) and petticoats. Now fabrics a nice mid weight brocade would work nicely. Suggestion party dresses of the era were off the shoulder and shawls were worn. I can't wait to see your dress when it is done.
ReplyDeleteUnless the party is entirely made up of historical reenactors you'll be fine with the pattern. There will be at least one person like my mom. Asked to dress "Victorian" for a party she'd say "Victorians wore long skirts and I have this plaid polyester maxi skirt I wore in the 70s so that's all set. And they wore those high necked lace blouses. A turtleneck has a high neck and long sleeves. I'll tack a piece of lace down the front and it will be close enough." Practicality before accuracy.
ReplyDeleteMaybe you should check with the party planner what they mean by "Victorian"-- you may be thinking Scarlett O'Hara while everyone else is thinking Sherlock Holmes!
ReplyDeleteHey so... what was the end result of your costume? Did you take a pic? Did I miss the post about it?
ReplyDeleteNosy, er..inquiring minds and all that...
I loved this pattern. I made it in gray for a Jane Eyre costume. Looks amazing in plain colors, too!
ReplyDelete